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Gaz


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is also a great site on the same subject:

http://www.earth-citizens.net/english.html

Well, it is if you like conspiracy theories, which I do! Grin

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Matt



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why make up a 'conspiracy theory' ?
This is from the Wikipedia entry on flight 77- have you Theorists found this video footage? I suppose you'll say its been faked...

"On May 16, 2006, the Department of Defense released filmed footage that were recorded by security cameras of American Airlines Flight 77 crashing into the Pentagon. The images were made public in response to a December 2004 Freedom of Information Act request by Judicial Watch. Some still images from the video had previously been released and publicly circulated, but this was the first official release of the full video of the crash."

See the full entry for details on why there are no wings visible, etc.

Those poor people. Sad
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Gaz


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt wrote:
Why make up a 'conspiracy theory' ?


Because it's more interesting that way?

Anyway, I've seen the footage they released - it shows naff all. It all happens too fast for the security cameras to pick up - there's a flash of white that comes in *very* close to the ground, and then a big bang. Certainly nothing that looks like a plane.

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Matt



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I suppose these eyewitness accounts are all fake:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77w.htm

Probably all CIA agents, or something...
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Gaz


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eye witnesses to disasters are notoriously unreliable. I've seen as many eye witness reports claim it was a small private jet as claim it was large airliner.

Many people also claim to have seen a C130 (large military transport) circling overhead minutes before the crash - whereas just as many people who were in the same area at the same time saw nothing.

People see what they want to see, or, perhaps more importantly, don't see what don't want to see.....

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Matt



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes, much better to give credence to the crazed mutterings of the conspiracy theorists...
Actually, I heard from a reliable source at the very heart of the US Administration (he drinks in our local) that it was an tragic accident; They(you know who) had just been test flying one of the new F119A Tactical Fighters (codenamed 'Shitehawk'), back-engineered from the remains of the craft recovered in '57 (you know where). The pilot was trying to plug in his i-Pod, and accidently launched a sidewinder missile.
The rest, as they say, is history.
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A Random Me


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stranger things have happened.
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Gaz


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt wrote:
Ah yes, much better to give credence to the crazed mutterings of the conspiracy theorists...


Why would you give any one person any more or less credence than another?

If someone questions the "official" story, are they automatically a conspiracy theorist and therefore "crazed" and not worth listening to?

I'm not saying all the conspiracy theories are true, not at all. They just make interesting reading. I think it's important to try to see things from as many sides as possible, rather than always accepting what we're told.

The world would be awfully dull if everyone always just accepted what they were told as being gospel. I like to keep an open mind about things, that's all.

"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in awhile, you could miss it." - Ferris Beuller

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Matt



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaz wrote:
Matt wrote:
Ah yes, much better to give credence to the crazed mutterings of the conspiracy theorists...


Why would you give any one person any more or less credence than another?



Hmm, next time you're wondering how to invest your life savings, try asking the Shouting Bloke who lives in the bus shelter.
You have to use your own judgement to decide who to believe.

Of course, there are plenty of examples of Offical Cover ups, I just don't think this (Flight 77) is a very likely one. BUT, I could be wrong - I wasn't there, and by your argument, even if I was, I couldn't believe my own experiences.
Strangely, when I was a nipper, I used to properly believe all kinds of stuff about UFOs, ghosts, time travel, Labour Party Election promises blah, blah. Now I'm grown up, I still get entertained by those sorts of things, but I don't BELEIVE them.

Go figure.
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Gaz


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt wrote:

Hmm, next time you're wondering how to invest your life savings, try asking the Shouting Bloke who lives in the bus shelter.

Hardly a fair comparison though is it - you're talking about informed opinion there. But in the flight 77 case, why should 1 person who says they saw a 757 be any more reliable than someone who says they saw a missile / private jet / F-16 / whatever?

Matt wrote:

You have to use your own judgement to decide who to believe.

Or you don't believe any of them 100%, and just keep an open mind about the whole thing.

Matt wrote:

Of course, there are plenty of examples of Offical Cover ups, I just don't think this (Flight 77) is a very likely one. BUT, I could be wrong - I wasn't there, and by your argument, even if I was, I couldn't believe my own experiences.

I've seen plenty of studies where eye witnesses of the same event have given wildly different versions of what they've seen. It does seem that, particularly with very traumatic or spectacular events, that the brain can be very selective about what it remembers, and can also in some people be *very* open to suggestion afterwards.

Matt wrote:

Strangely, when I was a nipper, I used to properly believe all kinds of stuff about UFOs, ghosts, time travel, Labour Party Election promises blah, blah. Now I'm grown up, I still get entertained by those sorts of things, but I don't BELEIVE them.
Go figure.


I look at these things differently. I don't feel I *need* to either strongly believe or not believe in any of these things. I'm very much entertained by them, and I have opinions about certain specific cases, but in general I neither believe nor dis-believe - I'm still waiting to be convinced either way.

In this specific case, I've seen enough stuff that simply doesn't make sense for me to think that *something* isn't quite right. A lot of it is later proved to be complete bunk, sure, but I'm still not thoroughly convinced about the whole 9/11 thing to be sayed completely one way or another.

Still, makes for great toot doesn't it? (Which I suspect means that the-poster-formerly-known-as-God has achieved his aims with this thread!) Grin

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Matt



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaz wrote:

Still, makes for great toot doesn't it? Grin


It certainly does, Stanley! (twiddles tie, looks at camera and pulls 'bemused' face)

Of course, you could argue that all of them books I like by some bloke called Robert Rankin (who?) are really just rather far fetched 'Conspiracy Theories', & therefore its no surprise that we should end up discussing such things here. Or here.

Maybe I was more open minded when I was younger...
With darker hair, less stomach, whiter teeth, and generally better dressed.
God, I was a catch, wasn't I?
Wink
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A Random Me


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> The world would be awfully dull if everyone always just accepted what they were told as being gospel.

And we'd all be so much easier to manipulate too.

> I've seen plenty of studies where eye witnesses of the same event have given wildly different versions of what they've seen. It does seem that, particularly with very traumatic or spectacular events, that the brain can be very selective about what it remembers, and can also in some people be *very* open to suggestion afterwards.

It's like the trusty viewing a video then asking what colour the van was...

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COD


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ironically, there are two thirds of the worlds population who believe what they hear and not what they see, the biggest cover up ever.
Eyewitness events from that particular event in question are widely different, yet, and here is the pun, taken as Gospel.
Makes the point that en masse, we will see what we're led to believe. In the instance of the Flight 77, we believed for nearly a year before anyone really spoke out in dissent.
Dull world, nah...most vans on the video are white, never a red one.


GOD

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A Random Me


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

> Dull world, nah...most vans on the video are white, never a red one.

I seem torecall white then blue as the most common answers. Which given that there was no van in the video in the first place, shows the point beautifully.

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Timmeh!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gents, the fact that eye-witness reports differ has absolutely nothing to do with some people being told what to believe; it's just a fact of life, and it's all about perception.

if you get 20 people to watch an episode of the Magic Roundabout and then ask them what colour the nearest flower to ermintrude was in scene 3 you'll get five different answers, and some of them will be adamant that what they think they saw is the correct answer. The police have to deal with this sort of shit all the time, in fact it's suspicious if everone gives the same answers.

Oh and there's two kinds of sheep involved here, the ones that believe everything that the government tells them, and the ones that believe eveything the conspiracy theorists tell them just because they want to disbelieve the government. That plain truth of it is that unless we were actually there, we'll never know for sure, and even then can't really be certain, and we're certainly never gonna find out the truth by looking at stuff that's written on the internet.

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